Why Sobriety Relapses Happen

Welcome to Armchair Expert

I'm Dax Shepard, joined by Monica Padman. Our guest today is Kelly Osborne. Kelly, welcome. It's so much more fun doing these in person again, isn't it? After over a year, it feels like you're doing it for the first time.

I'm the second guest back in the attic. Still in the top three. It's amazing. You never take anything for granted again. Then, suddenly, you're a Californian complaining about traffic. It's so bad again. I can't believe how long it took me to get here, and I only live like three miles away. I gave myself fifteen minutes because I was still in my COVID bubble of how long it takes to get anywhere.

I do not like being late. It is extremely triggering for me. If someone is consecutively late every single time, that means you don't respect my time. My mom is late to everything. Monica and I had a big talk about me being late about nine months ago. I'm not allowed to say 'powwow' anymore. It's a Native American word. I don't understand why it's disrespectful. I don't agree that you can't say anything outside of your culture if it's not derogatory. You need to educate yourself.

I was at dinner recently, and we were talking about how you have to be careful or you'll get blacklisted. Half the table turned to me and said, "Oh my God, you cannot say that. That comes from slavery." I had no idea. I said I was sorry and would never say it again. Then a friend at the table said, "No, I am not taking that. That is not where that comes from." He did the research. It goes back to 17th-century British history, to do with people who were outcast in society. It had nothing to do with racism.

This happened on this show three weeks ago. I said 'master bedroom' several times. People wrote in the comments that you can't say 'master'; it's about slavery. I looked it up. The term 'master bedroom' was invented in 1926 by Sears for their catalog, about 70 years after slavery. It has nothing to do with slavery. The people doing this and saying these things are white people. This is coming from white guilt.

I went through that whole thing where I was embarrassed to be me because of everything I didn't know. This year has been the great deprogramming and education for a lot of people. I've been racist innumerable times and not even realized it. Now I'm learning. I didn't even know what unconscious bias meant. This is the best part of history to be alive in. Yes, it's uncomfortable, but change is happening. It's great change, and accountability is finally happening. It's about holding people accountable so justice can happen. I'm so with it. But I don't think you are obligated to throw away logic. To say 'master bedroom' is racist when it's simply not the case.

Is the word 'master' itself triggering to a community? In England, the master bedroom is where the lord and lady reside. I come at it from a classist mindset. I don't want to be part of that posh world. The word 'master' has all these applications. Is hearing 'master cylinder' on your car going to be triggering? If I heard it from a Black person, I would be way more receptive. But the seven people who wrote comments were white.

I read an article about how we're not allowed to say 'woke' anymore. I think it was in The Guardian. It's odd because they're the vanguard of progressiveness. People are weaponizing the word 'woke,' and it's losing its meaning. People are weaponizing the word 'racist,' and it's losing its meaning. When you call everyone racist, how do you know who is racist? We need a few more words.

We interviewed a Latino guest who said there's a big difference between racism in your mind versus racism in your heart. Racism in your mind is like you grew up in this culture; you don't know to question the advantage you have. That's a mental thing. Racism in your heart is if you hate Latinos. That's a big issue. I think it would be of value to make something between those two things. There can be grace and forgiveness in the mental version and not in the heart version.

It's so scary right now, but I'm enjoying the fear of it. I'm enjoying making mistakes over the past few years because I've learned so much. That's such a good attitude that a lot of people are not taking on. Sure, it's okay to say some people are racist in their mind because of the society they live in, but then they have to make changes. They can't just say, "Well, it's just what I forever."

I have done some really awful things in my life. But the thing I got the most flak for was being fat. I got more work the more messed up I was. That's so interesting.

Let's start at our beginning. You're like a year and a half ahead of me, but we both got famous on MTV roughly at the same time. MTV back then was the most fun place you could work on TV. There was no other network like it. Everything was a party. It was the easiest place for me to be an addict, to be a pervert. It was a real wonderful whatever. Me and Jack talk about this all the time. If we were that age now, I would be in jail for sure. They'd be making real big examples. You look at all these young kid rappers now, and I'm like, I'm a girl, and I was doing worse stuff than you. This was all happening at the same time.

Your brother's open about being sober, right? Eighteen years now. I would have had almost seventeen right now. He was a year ahead of me. I had a few attempts, so I knew him. I used to go to meetings at your house. I remember. I fell in love with both your mother and you in that process. I want to know what your memory of this is. I would come over for a meeting and flirt with you and your mother shamelessly for about a half hour. You would say, "You're going to marry me when you grow up," and I would say, "No, I'm not." Your mom totally wanted it. Sharon definitely wanted us to get married. She's like, "He's so lovely," and I'm like, "Leave me alone, Mom." I was so awkward and so messed up on drugs.

That's what's fun to learn about you today. I walked into that scenario knowing obviously your dad had a problem and then learning Jack was an addict and then I was an addict. But I thought, "Oh, she escaped it." It did not escape me. You were just better at hiding it. So much better at hiding it. Until I got to this point where I was nodding out. Those are hard to hide. You can't hide the nod. I was nodding out, and my mom was like, "What is going on?" You would imagine if any person on planet Earth would have the best Spidey senses about people being messed up, it'd be your mom. You would imagine you couldn't possibly get one by your mom.

Long story short, you have to remember I was like, "Mom, look what Jack's doing." Because Jack got way worse than I was quicker. But I didn't know that in the long run, I'd end up being the bigger problem. Back then, I was like, "Look what he's doing, Mom." So Jack got sent off to rehab, and he did amazing. But then at that time, my mom had cancer. Then my dad had that bike accident. There was so much going on with the reality show and everything that what I was doing, no one was looking at.

This would be a fun exercise. My memory of that thing where I would flirt with you in front of your mother—I'm afraid to ask—how old were you? She was twenty, and I was twenty-seven. Was I twenty? I thought it was nineteen. No, it was at the end of that show. I was twenty. I was twenty, and I was twenty-seven. Just normal. Also, I didn't touch her or grab her or anything like that. It was always really sweet. But look, I'm open to the notion that I too was delusional. I thought that was really fun, and I thought it was fun for you. Every time I would see you on a red carpet or something, I would find you and say, "My future wife." It was like this running joke that we had. You seemed to enjoy it, but I could be completely wrong.

No, it always made me giggle. I was never like, "Oh, that creepy Dax." The one thing about Dax is there's no creepy thing about you from what I've seen. Okay, good. This could have been a moment, a learning moment. Monica, what do you want to say? I could find out that I was one of those guys. No, you weren't. Okay, good. If I were in your shoes, I might be like, "I don't understand what's happening. Do you like me?" Oh, I totally did. I thought Kelly was the cutest, most punk rock, bad-attitude adorableness. This is exactly who I would try to date in high school.

I guess I would be like, "Well, then why?" I thought he was just joking. This is what I thought. You were so adorable. This is what I'm saying. So funny. All those years, I was like, "Oh, he's just being nice to me," because I was so insecure and like a former fat person, still in my old body. No, I thought you were a unicorn. Well, you are a unicorn. That's so funny. But this is a Monica thing. I would feel like, "Well, he's making these jokes, and like, okay, so I guess I'm not good enough for him to actually ask out because he's just making these jokes." I mean, these are my issues, and I'm projecting onto you. But that's what I would feel. If this person kept coming around, they were joking.

We have this friend. Mind you, he's married, but he's in love with Monica. He sends me really funny texts all the time. Like, "Hey, dude, sorry you got surgery. How's Monica doing?" They're really good, and they're jokes. But he sincerely is in love with Monica. But Monica really thinks it's just a bit. Or some percentage of it is. It is a bit, but Kelly, it's not a bit. He's obsessed with her. He screenshots her Instagram messages, sends them to me. I mean, as part of a very good running bit. Anyway, the most committed bit of all time. The commitment bit is so good.

But did you have a hard time recognizing when guys liked you? I was so worried about getting my heartbroken after I got my heartbroken the first time that I turned into a rough person with men. I did not care if they liked me. I did not really like them. They served a purpose sometimes, and then others not. It's something that I do feel really bad about now, being in a relationship, which is the complete flip side, where I actually care how what I do affects him. And that's what brought me back after my relapse.

Okay, really quick, before we leave this bubble we were in, you were seventeen when the show started? Sixteen. Were you in a capsule? Or were you? Couldn't have been. The weirdest part was that you have to remember no one had ever done what we had done. You guys invented a genre. So as we were doing it, we didn't know either. We didn't know what they were going to use and what they weren't because they filmed everything. Everything. I had a camera in my bedroom but not in my bathroom. The bathroom is the only place. So they saw when I was up and stuff. But you got to remember not to get changed in your room. I got to get changed in my bathroom. I just threw something over it every time. You could cover it. And now I'm so weirded out by cameras. I noticed them in places where people never see them as a result of this. I bet it's so strange.

The first season we filmed, I remember the night before it aired, my mom took us to Venice Beach, went to go see the drum circle. And we were like, "Did we just make the biggest mistake we've ever made in our lives?" And then the next day, everything changed. It was like Beatlemania except for the Osbornes. We had people outside of our house. I'd never seen cars parked on the street outside of our house before. It just wasn't like that. I woke up and looked out the window, and it was just cars everywhere. I was like, "What is all this?" Then I got ready, not thinking, because I didn't think anyone would ever care about me. It was a show about my dad, and I'm in the family, of course. And thus far, when you're traveling through the world for those first sixteen years, people see your dad; you're probably invisible. Mostly invisible, unless it's a rock fan who knows my dad's stuff, and then they know me. I'd done a few bits on TV from like twelve, but not anything substantial if you know what I'm saying, other than when we started doing all the stuff on MTV.

I remember my first thing I did with them was Spring Break. It was like the craziest thing we had ever. I had so much fun. You did? Where was it? Cancun. Oh, baby. Remember those days? It was crazy. What was that time? Were you able to party while you were in? Okay, so we had a security guard with us that my mom sent out, who's also on the show, Manny. You're legally allowed to drink there at that age? Are you? I went to Cancun on Spring Break when I was in eleventh grade, and I just drank at every bar. I was sixteen, but no one stopped me. I think it is sixteen in Mexico.

Anyway, we went to this one place, and I remember it was like Bust a Rhyme's crew, and I can't remember who else's crew was there. I think it might have been DMX. Oh, wow. And all of a sudden, it was like the parting of the Red Sea, and then it was like a huge fight broke out, a rumble. All I remember is getting flipped over someone's shoulder and dragged out of the club. And then they were like, "Next club." And we went to this next place, and it was like Paris was having a party with Nikki at it, and we were just babies. Wow. And it was when people still listened to rock music, and it was like nuts.

By the way, have you watched the Paris Hilton documentary? I have not yet. I just watched it two nights ago, and it's incredible. Okay, my favorite part that I've heard about it is that you finally get to see the Paris that I know, if you know what I mean. Yeah, she's so smart. And so funny. But the persona of "Hey, gorgeous," that is that's pretty good. That's her blanket, you know what I'm saying? That's what she had to build to protect herself. And now you get that insight, and you get to understand the person behind the voice.

Well, and what's really telling is they have all this footage from when she was a child, and the whole family was obsessed with how pretty she was. They talked about her all the time. Her nickname was "Star" in her family. And it's like, oh, you very much see that she's being told her value is that she's beautiful. The grandma wants her to be Marilyn Monroe. It's all happening, but no one's recognizing it's happening. And then you learn about this trauma she had like in high school. And initially, I was kind of like, "Is this inflated trauma for the sake of this documentary?" But then there's a huge support group of survivors from these schools where they come kidnap you in the middle of the night. This was like an aggressive Outward Bound type of thing to reform children. Oh, wow. I have a lot of friends that went to that school. Really? I do.

So she's just sixteen or seventeen, sleeping in her home, and two men she doesn't know come into her room and pick her up and drag her out of the house. And as she's screaming for her parents, screaming for her parents, and as she crosses, she sees her parents. They see, and they're crying, but they've orchestrated this whole thing. No talking. Take her to this place. She tries to run away. She ends up being there for a year, often in confinement. Solitary? Wait, wait, wait, cuz why? Because she had been going out and getting in trouble, wayward kids. But really, what it is is for rich parents who don't know how to be parents or have tried everything through therapy and don't get it. And to be empathetic to them, scared parents who don't know what to do. Scared parents. It's not always rich because I do know Kathy, and Kathy Hilton is like one of my favorite moms of my friends. She's incredible. I love her. And I'm not speaking about Paris and all that when I say this, but generally speaking, the friends of mine who are not Paris that went to this place, their parents were just so wealthy and socialites that kids were brought up by the nannies. And they thought that what they were doing for their kid was sending them away and paying for someone else to make them right. Yeah, throwing money at the quote problem and not actually realizing that part of the problem is that they're not connecting with their own kids. Yeah. So there's a whole survivor community of kids who